Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, dude, bad as and welcome to bad boy running. We've just finished up our interview with our next guest, gabe, and, really interesting, he's gone to, he's taken midnight runners to, I think, 60 new cities. So we talk about everything how that happened, what was, what was missing in these communities, what it tells us about the running community. But actually at the end of the episode it really gets interesting because we started to talk about Gabe to Gabe, about what it's been like for him, because for the last five, six years he hasn't had a residence to stay in. He's literally lived out of his suitcase for those five years, going city to city, and as soon as he's got something established he moves on. He's like the lidless hobo, and so we we just talked to him about what that's been like for him actually and I try and try and basically pimps the women on him at the end to suggest he needs love. But that is all to come. So do listen. It's really really good interview because games incredible and I really hope you enjoy it. Take it away, nick. We spoke to JD Braga quite a few years ago where he was talking about not only organizing a race in Somalia but setting up, helping to set up the night runners. But Gabe, our next guest, is someone who I've known for years. He's an incredibly good beer muller but he's had the job of going round, it seems, from the lot for the first time I've met him. Until now he's been living out of a bag setting up midnight running chapters around the world which are now massive, incredibly engaged and completely unique in my part from my point of view as running chapters of any organization global. So he's come to the podcast to tell us all about his running and how he's done that and what's changed and what we can learn about how to create communities from his experience. Welcome to the podcast, the incredible Gabe Guglione.

Speaker 3: 2:26

Thank you guys. So much for the warm welcome.

Speaker 1: 2:29

I'm excited. I'm excited World deserved. I'm trying to think when we, when we first met, it would have been probably the world being my 27. And tnish, something like that Were you, were you been on an event.

Speaker 3: 2:46

No, this was actually before the time I started with minute runners. I had just finished university and decided to take off backpacking through India for like four months and I think the only way that I could afford a ticket out of India was I was planning to move to Europe was if I had to run a specific beer mile time in order to qualify for a sponsored flight to come to the beer mile world championships. So like I was there and like no money and I hadn't been involved with minute runners at all before, but this beer mile world championships.

Speaker 1: 3:26

I was on a Canadian beer mile team.

Speaker 3: 3:30

I ran a 517 beer mile at the world championships and I had to run like a 530. And I remember I was. I was backpacking around and had to find like a dirt track and fill myself, chugging like strong Indian beer and running around a dirt track in order to get this, this sponsored flight, out there.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Oh my God, it made me dizzy.

Speaker 3: 3:55

That was an interesting point in my life, but it was, it was great, it was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 4:01

So you actually came to London knowing you had to do this race, but then just with your bag and no other solid plans.

Speaker 3: 4:10

Yeah, exactly, and that was my first time ever in London, but it seems that you know, london keeps on drawing me back. I'm I find myself in London several times a year for friends, community work, and I seem to be always coming back there. So that was that was a really interesting start, really interesting start to my journey. I later, after the beer mile world championships, I later moved to Berlin and when I, when I moved to Berlin, I started trying to get to know people, meet new people in the city, and that's where I got involved with midnight runners and I had just started there. There's only midnight runners in London where where it started back in 2015, and I got involved in the second city when, when that Jodie Breger actually moved to Berlin and I met him there, we started the community there with there's only like 15 people. Now it's got a massive community in Berlin. You had known.

Speaker 1: 5:11

You didn't know Jodie before that point. You hadn't, because I'd assumed, actually, that you'd you traveled with midnight runners out, or at least you'd had some association prior.

Speaker 3: 5:23

And no, I actually I was introduced through to him through a connection I made at the beer mile world championships in London 2017.

Speaker 1: 5:34

Fantastic, beer miles in the lung and so? So then, when we see were you, did you? Were you quickly part of the it's, the organization of structure in Berlin. For a while were you just happy to attend and you were getting on the rest of your life with no real intention of developing.

Speaker 3: 5:55

Yeah, well, yeah, no real intention of developing into an employee. At the time I was working during my time in Berlin for for like a tech startup, a small app, and just wanted to meet people, improve my German. What was the app? And you know, get a, get a community. It was called the spirit app. It is is no longer existing was a startup with like six or seven employees and it was so amazing. I got to learn, learn a ton working there, but this minute runners at the time I was a. I quickly became a crew captain and later the city lead of the community there and that was an amazing network for me. A community like a fallback, when you know times weren't hard, but also that, like you know, support me during the good times. So for people that they, that was became a really important part of my life.

Speaker 1: 6:54

For people that don't know me now, I'm sure most of the most of our listeners will, but certainly not all. How would you describe it?

Speaker 3: 7:04

So I would describe this as a running boot camp. So the way that the events actually take place is, you know, a five to 10 kilometer run with three to five different exercise stops. So you run a kilometer and a half stop, do some exercises. So the speed demons at the front, they have to do burpees or sit ups until the rest of the group arrives. And you know the people at the back could be someone who's never run, you know a five cable for, but they're, they're joining in this front. So all of a sudden you're getting this, this cross connection between people who can run fast at the front and they have to push themselves in the exercises as they're getting. For the people who've never run before, and that you know, once you do an exercise altogether, then you're creating those connections between you know different, different speed groups, different like performance levels. That really is an interesting way of making connections.

Speaker 1: 8:07

And yeah, and when you say the slower, you know people at the back, because I know I know for the experience of the hash house areas, we see ourselves as being really inclusive and the inferior and you're coming on with join. But actually I've been there quite a few times or it's just impossible to find when people are so slow that they just can't keep up. And would you, would you say that's, could anyone join midnight runners and actually do it without feeling awkward? Or would you need to be at least a little bit fit to be able to actually, you know, more than just a power walk?

Speaker 3: 8:48

I think that usually tell people that they should be able to run five kilometers comfortably If they're able to like, really enjoy the event. And, as you know, as as people come along, you people get really surprised with what they're capable of because the thing, that big thing that really you know I failed to mention that defines the way that they run with music and all of a sudden they find that people you know, beginner runners find themselves surrounded by music, people, all this high energy, people are whooping and hollering and it really, you know, drags people through this. And you know, some people come up to me afterwards and I didn't even notice I was running. But I wouldn't say it's for absolute beginners. Yeah, you should be able to run comfortably, like a 5k or the distance of the run, if you're really going to enjoy it.

Speaker 1: 9:46

So I think London, one of the big features is that it runs around the Thames and it's a lovely route because you've got the bridges, you've got mainly enough space to run people on some of the tunnels a bit tight. With Berlin, is there a natural route for midnight runners? Was there an obvious place to go that would fit in, almost with the same format?

Speaker 3: 10:11

Yeah, so in each of the cities we all run in the city center somewhere with, like, really iconic places. And then Berlin, that's right along the spray and you know, we, we stop right by the side, like the sea, which is like this big monument in the middle of the, in the park. We stop stop right beside Brandenburg gate. We stop beside these these big iconic places and we do exercises there and it's a really great way between you know any of these cities, like in London, you're stopping right beside, you know St Paul's Cathedral and you know you're doing squats right beside St Paul's. And that's really these iconic spots that allow you to connect with city in a different way, which for a lot of people it's not very normal. Just to kind of walk around some parts of central London or some those parts of Berlin, right, you are able to actually like really interact with this. Like, yeah, every Tuesday I, I run through here and I do squats right here and it's really almost a way of like reclaiming public spaces. You're saying like, yes, this is, this is my city, and it really feels like that when you're charging through the city with you know 200, 300 people and that's really like owning the streets and that feels it's a really invigorating feeling. But now we're. You know, berlin was the second minute runners community at the time and now it's 2023 and we have 18 cities around the world and, yeah, all the communities right now are really, really flourishing.

Speaker 2: 11:50

What's the criteria for choosing cities like Berlin, obviously as a kind of a vibe to in everything, what's what's the kind of the criteria? What makes a good midnight runners city?

Speaker 3: 12:03

Well, the way that we would decide to expand a new city is almost a level of influence that the city has, as well as the connectedness you know does have. An international airport is easy to get to, is there a good public transportation system? Is it generally a healthy and active city? And I think, when kind of cross analyzing all these different factors, you can find, like, what city is going to work, reverses what is not going to work. Some cities that we actually initially struggled, struggled in were cities where there was not great public connection and public transport.

Speaker 1: 12:43

What you don't have was a van.

Speaker 3: 12:46

For example, la, there's not fantastic public transport and with a large group like that and with our format, you need large open public spaces and almost courtyards. That you find a lot everywhere within European cities, but in not every North American city. Especially LA doesn't really have these large courtyards to do these exercises in with 200, 300 people. So that really leaves the only possibility in LA is to do it along the Santa Monica Venice beach and that's just more difficult to get to from Central LA. So I think a place like London it's due to the public transport. You can live in Sheffield and be in St Paul's in an hour and a half, even if you want to, and you can come from outside of the city into the city within an hour and a half. But if you live in the same city in LA, it'll take you an hour and a half to drive from the Central LA during rush hour to Santa Monica and yeah, I think that transportation is really important.

Speaker 1: 14:06

Do you think people in LA are aware that the rest of the world isn't like that, it doesn't have to be like this, or do you think they just think?

Speaker 2: 14:19

it's like forever. You're asking do Americans realize that people?

Speaker 3: 14:22

outside of America are different. That's a great question. People often ask me what's the difference between Canadians and Americans? I mean, as a Canadian traveling abroad, I spend all my time saying actually I'm not American. And people jokingly ask what's the difference between Canadians and Americans? And I respond, living in LA, saying yeah, canadians just recognize that there's other countries out there other than just America. But, jokes aside, I think that they do know the traffic is horrible and they complain about it all the time. They complain about it all the time, so don't worry, they know.

Speaker 1: 15:09

So you've been, you were in Berlin, you've been with this startup. Then how did that change to, firstly, you becoming the person who was opening your chapters, but also, how did that even work financially? I know there were rumors that in London they had to almost start charging for midnight runners because it was becoming too big and actually they needed to limit the number because there are issues with how many people are turning up to the bridge of Millennium Bridge, and so they had to start charging there. And then there was so suddenly there was this glut of money coming in which actually the organization doesn't really need money, and then it's quite a weird thing what's to do with money? Like what actually? Because I don't know if any of that is just rumors I've heard or true how did this all go about then, you being able to actually financially go and open?

Speaker 3: 16:08

new cities. So in London it became a problem because suddenly this is in 2016,. I think it really blew up in London and there's upwards of 500, 600 people showing up every week and that's kind of the numbers that midnight runners in Toronto is getting right now and it's difficult to manage. And so they started putting in a payment, a monthly payment, in order to cap the numbers and that money was all staying within that cities that it can use to buy rounds of drinks or for a specific party run, hire DJs or photographers or whatever. But then we actually got a partnership with Reebok and that helped us. That was the insertion of cash that was able us to actually have full-time employees, because prior to that that's not not enough. All that just kind of went into that city. But yeah, when we had, when I was in Berlin, I was a city lead and we had a partnership with Reebok and then I was able to start as a full-time employee. I was the third employee. So there's Jody JB, who spoke to, as well as Joel, and I joined on to help open in different cities and so my role is so would you be negotiating?

Speaker 1: 17:37

would that be a discussion with Reebok where to go next?

Speaker 3: 17:41

So we would kind of present them a list of cities that we were interested in and they say, okay, we're interested in opening these markets. And we're like, yeah, that sounds fun. Like, do you want to open in Mid-Net Runners New York? Yes, that sounds amazing. So I think. So I moved from Berlin and actually lived in London for a bit after working for another tech start, really briefly, and then I started working for Mid-Net Runners full time and then I started opening up Mid-Net Runners in different cities, which brought me to San Francisco, toronto, bogota, santiago de Chile, mexico City and this, yeah, around the United States. And this last year I've been living in, started Mid-Net Runners in Amsterdam, mid-net Runners Tokyo and just recently, mid-net Runners Milan. So I'm just getting back from Milan after a long year. It's interesting actually hearing. It's been a wild ride.

Speaker 1: 18:45

Yeah, I mean just listening to that list, it's not the order I expect. But before we go onto that, like the 500 people in London, that's obviously amazing, but part of me. It kind of saddens me in some ways as well, though, because the fact it was it grew so fast. It almost suggests that for so long there was this huge number of people that were being on service by running clubs, by sports, by gyms, by communities. It really hints at something desperately missing within London. What do you think it was that? Really, because there's certainly an element of hype. There's certainly an element of Mid-Net. Runners have always been really well known for ensuring that things were documented and looked good on satials and stuff, but what do you think the secret was why people were wanting to be involved?

Speaker 3: 19:48

Well, I think that actually, mid-net Runners brings such a positive energy and force and I truly believe that Mid-Net Runners solves some crucial issues in our society today, especially in young people who move to a large city and don't have a network or community, and I think that provides a solution. I think that in every city that we live in, it actually enhances the quality of life of someone living in a city because it provides free and accessible fitness and to this day, the only community that charged a membership was London. Now it's a free and open community Now that we have sponsorships, but I think that it provides a way of meeting new people in a somewhat lonely space. You can often move to a new city and this was my experience when I first moved to Berlin and I was surrounded by so many people but it's hard to actually connect to these people and you can still feel lonely and I think it's by going in the streets blasting music, running around, feeling like a child again and the endorphins from running, the endorphins from listening to the music and these social connections. You feel surrounded by people who are going through this experience with you and feeling like you're doing something better for yourself. This is you're running, you're improving yourself and other people are going through this experience with you, and you finish at a bar, the social space, and you're able to connect and talk to people, and I think that's where it kind of differentiates from a lot of different fitness programs or fitness groups. The first half of the event is the run and the fitness part, but with Midnight Run, the second half of the event is really the social. So the runs don't start at midnight, they start at 7pm, but often people leave the bar at midnight or after, and so I think it's really solving some big societal problems of loneliness and unequal access to fitness.

Speaker 1: 22:19

Because the main observation we get from people about running clubs and other crossfit or whatever it may be is intimidation about turning up. There's that fear of am I not good enough or what if? And Midnight Runners are a lot of. The captains, particularly in the early days, were beautiful people and all the photos looked fantastic, which to me would suggest that that would create intimidation of people not feeling like they'd be able to fit in if they did turn up. So how do you think Midnight Run is actually? Why was that not the case? Because clearly it wasn't stopping people back from coming, whereas it is the case of stopping people attending all these other activities.

Speaker 3: 23:13

Well, I think with Midnight Runners it's such a strong and welcoming community of people returning back and the main reason why people come is people are dragged along by the friends. They're like you gotta come to this. So it's all word of mouth. I think the external I would say marketing of Midnight Runners isn't the main driver of people that brings people to the community. It's the people that bring people to the community. It's like you meet someone really positive and if you really create, I think the main thing is if you create a golden core of a community, you're gonna get a golden community. People are attracted to positivity and if you get a few positive people together and say, hey, come on out. And what I love about it is you can invite anyone and it makes someone who is a crossfitter and not a runner, or you can invite a really elite runner that wants to socialize, or you can do someone who's training for the first ever 10K and this is a good way of meeting people. And this is, I think, to answer your question. It's not about what's advertised externally, it's the people who will drag you in and showing up is the hardest part. And then I think something that we do that's really crucial and I, when I'm opening new cities and this is a piece of culture that I really try and part on the new communities like you, have to do this at every event and you say who's here the very first time, hands up and then go meet two new people. Everyone in the community needs two new people and all the members are encouraged to go welcome someone showing up for the very first time. And that might actually be the only time in someone's week where they have the opportunity to talk to someone that's outside of their normal social circle and just providing that as an opportunity to say, hey, everyone, go meet two new people. That's, for some people, two people that they would have never met if they hadn't showed up. So you mentioned about. I think it's pretty welcoming to me in that sense.

Speaker 1: 25:21

You mentioned how if you've got a golden core, then that that grows and develops. So let's say you're, you're going to a new city. Then talk us through the steps. How do you, how do you prep in advance, how do you launch and how do you ensure that the core is indeed golden?

Speaker 3: 25:43

So when I, when I moved to a new city, I always what I do is I reach out to all my friends and all my connections and say, hey, I'm going to the city. Does anyone know anyone? That's fun, and you know. Now we're. You know we have 18 cities around the world and someone always knows someone, right? And you know, even opening up some of the first cities, like within the connections in London, you know people, people move around. There's London is a super international city and has people from all over the world, right, and so when we're moving to, let's say, san Francisco, you know there's some people who are from San Francisco who moved to London and and vice versa, right, and so I went there and to San Francisco and you found me some people for coffee, you know, go for a ride and go to different exercise class or, you know, a lot of times that's kind of how it happens, like a friend of a friend, friends. When I opened in Tokyo, a friend of mine from San Francisco, new, someone from Hawaii who knew someone that used to teach classes, yoga classes, with them in Tokyo, and I went to the yoga class. From there I was invited to someone I met there, their birthday party, and that's kind of how it. It's like this. So you almost, I guess change your voice.

Speaker 1: 27:10

You almost could form a friendship group for yourself, and then you use that as the core to then launch the events.

Speaker 3: 27:24

Maybe, maybe that's the trick, for it is like I'm just extremely lonely and can't live happily in a city without a community and a network of people, and so I'm forced to make this network of people. Yeah, no it's. I create a friend group. That's what I do.

Speaker 1: 27:39

And are you like the first event? Is this done through Facebook events? Is this done through WhatsApp? You know, have you, have you got a like a tech solution that seems to work well.

Speaker 3: 27:51

Yeah, so we host all of events right now on the halo app, which is I love this, this platform it's. It's a great platform for community management Because you can list your events, you have people sign up and make profiles on there, as well as there's chats specifically for each event. Right, so you can sign up for the event and then ask a question in the chat as well. As there's large features for, like larger community management. Like, if there's an important update about events coming up, I can send out like push notifications to that and there's I can break out. You know the conversations in different channels, so this is the app that we use, but usually to get the word out there it's, it's that's more for, like, definitely, internal communication. That's not any. You know you can't, people aren't scrolling around on the halo app, but that's where the community exists. So it's an event, a bit of swear. We can. We can control our numbers there, how many people can attend the event and if, say, someone saying, I'm doing, I'm doing a run this weekend, I'm going to do trail run, they can post into the chat and they can even make another chat function saying, okay, people trail running on Saturdays and people can join and see that it's not like a WhatsApp chat or you miss the message and you miss the opportunity. So it's. I love it as platform.

Speaker 1: 29:27

And then, and so you've got your friends out, how do you then just have? You decide a route and how do you figure out? Because not every country is as safe to run it others or as legal to run or to take or has the same relationship and public space as like the UK. So how do you go about?

Speaker 3: 29:45

that. You know that's a really great question. I think some key elements to minute runners roots are in iconic locations and you need large open spaces in these urban, urban environment, spaces where you can do exercises. And obviously you need these spaces. You know that can't be like broken glass everywhere. They need to be up kept spaces and that's what I think to the latter half of your question is that's a you know, that's that's really important. I, especially when opening in in Bo Wita, when I moved to Columbia to start it there, I had a lot of people said you know you can't run in the center. The center is, it's too dangerous, it's really too dangerous. And you know, although the center might be a dangerous place if you're a single person running around there, if all of a sudden you're, you are creating the atmosphere. You show up with 200 people, you are creating a safe atmosphere and it's a really a way of and for a lot of people who were part of the community in Bo Wita expressed to me that it was really like an empowering way of feeling that you could own these streets Really they were yours and you were able to run through them and so it created a safe environment for people to do it and you know, and that's a lot of the motivation, where people around the world Join us is like you're creating a safe environment especially. You know you'll find that there's a lot of women that join the net runners because it allows them to run at night versus running at loan. At night is, you know, has some a lot of it can be that safe Right, and so finding the route in in Bo Wita was was difficult also to you know, traffic and etc. But I think it has a really great way of bringing people to the space. And there's there's one of the captains in Bo Wita and she before you know, joining the group should never, really should never, run downtown or one city, and that was really like interesting to hear and we're creating, you know, we're connecting people to their city again.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Yeah, I was going to say, seeing is a sort of key part of this is not just, you know, like reclaiming the streets and the city centre, but also en masse, doing a lot of you know exercises, activities around these, you know the kind of landmark areas. Has there ever been situations where you know the cities have been okay with it and they're not okay with it? Like all of a sudden, you know they thought I was just a running group, you'd be fine, and then all of a sudden, 300 people and then people are complaining or whatever is that? Is that situation ever a reason? Because I know, you know, obviously people are changeable. Two or three complaints, all of a sudden, you know everyone starts throwing the toys out the pram. Does that has ever come up?

Speaker 3: 32:50

Yes, of course, in many cities not all of them, but many cities, even in London, which is where it started every once in a while there's a Karen that will do a complaining. I think that's why, right now, netrunners in London has a cap of 250 or 300 people. Just because they were running with 500 people during the summer, it was really getting a lot. But usually it's a matter of respect and working with the group to find the best option. In some cities, like Tokyo for example, I had to change the route every single week. I know Shibuya like the back of my hand because I have run every single street in that sector of Tokyo looking for proper routes, because there's very tight, small streets and a lot of people in the streets. Tokyo is a very different city, different culture, and they have a lot of places that have very strict noise regulations. The group runs with 120-decibel backpack speakers blasting music. Surprisingly, actually, that contrast of energy really made it very popular in Tokyo because people were like wow, what is this? People went wild. The only limiting factor was that a lot of the spaces were privately owned and there were security guards there. We had to go and apply for permits in almost every single location. We were stopping every single week and it was a headache. There's always ways around it. The crew in Tokyo is almost now accustomed to applying for permits to do an exercise. Stop that, we'll be in for 10 minutes. I think you get a big reaction for people in Tokyo when you're running by. It's very, very positive. Surprisingly, in New York, people don't bat an eye when you're running back with all these speakers. They're like, okay, another person running around with music, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 35:24

But they've also had the New York skate, they've had the hash, they've had 20 different groups for years, if some sort Every group's blasting music.

Speaker 2: 35:34

Yeah, someone walking normally is looked frowned upon in New York, isn't it? That's the sort of walking by not doing something weird. Is there any places where, because of the nature of how you want it to be, how you want the experience to be, and that you don't want to compromise on it, are there any places that you know that you definitely can't go? I mean obviously, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:59

France would obviously be. But if what France you'd imagine would be a rule-based society, imagine what I was thinking.

Speaker 3: 36:06

France, I was thinking imagine you'd have time to do the regulation stuff.

Speaker 2: 36:09

We've been in.

Speaker 3: 36:10

Paris We've been in Paris.

Speaker 1: 36:13

Oh, they do Fantastic.

Speaker 3: 36:15

Yeah, it's a great route. It's actually beautifully run into an action stop right beside the Eiffel Tower. It's incredible.

Speaker 1: 36:24

But are there any countries or any places you've tried to launch or that you've, with your awareness, now wouldn't launch because you know, as you, Jody said, it can't get the recipe right?

Speaker 3: 36:35

Yeah, yeah, I would say there's definitely some cities within the United States just because of their expansiveness. I wouldn't open in Phoenix, arizona, for example, because it's just this massive expanse. You have to drive everywhere. There's not really one central iconic area. So I think public transport is a big one. Some people would say some cities I guess more dangerous cities would be difficult to open up in, but I actually have a different opinion about that. I think that opening up in cities where it's potentially more of a dangerous city, it actually creates opportunity for people to be in a safe environment, like it was mentioned earlier in People With Thought. And there are some cities that actually want to open up specifically for different reasons, because I think they would have a large social impact. For example, one of my dream cities to open up is in Mid-Norway Mumbai, because I lived in South India for a little bit and when I was there I was running every day. So I started, long story short, I started a little running group in my community and there's they actually a lot of, I guess, hate from men if they saw women running and that was actually very, very conservative in South India and I think that the change that does I've seen happens in Mumbai and spreads out, and I think that is an example of a place that may net runners can bring some really positive change and make it safer or more common for people to, and specifically women to, exercise. That's where, like places like that, or maybe in starting in Istanbul and other places where it's potentially more conservative and running as females, maybe not necessarily frowned upon, but not as common I want to bring this community there to make safe spaces, because I really think that it makes creates a safe environment, a safe culture.

Speaker 1: 39:00

And what? Because, from from my experience of a few hashes in different countries over the years, you can create these wonderful cultures and actually it just takes one one and that then attracts people who are looking for community or who maybe don't have social skills themselves and are therefore blending in the backgrounds without needing that. And I've been witness. I've witnessed, a few times where individuals have nearly killed organizations because they've, one by one kind of targeted females without people being aware, and suddenly you, you, you turn around and half the groups vanished and you, you don't realize why, like has. Has that been a problem ever in any of the groups and midnight runners? And do you think there's? If not, has there been something done specifically that you think stops that happening? Because wherever you have a group of females who are happy to talk to anyone, it naturally attracts people that want to get involved in that, and not all of them are going to be welcomed people by the females.

Speaker 3: 40:16

That's actually a big thing that you know we've been talking over the last couple of years with you know is how do we create a safe space and some things that, like you know, some small things like a terms of conditions right, so like, if someone is being rude, acts out of order, it's reported to a captain or directly to midnight runners global and they're removed and kindly asked to be removed from the events and no longer attend. So that's, I guess, so as a an HR.

Speaker 1: 40:49

So, within that, though, how like because that that in itself is can be very divisive and also potentially very unfair Like how, how? How has that been applied? Because it's very hard to do it well without being heavy-handed or without just always taking the side of, of one side rather than the other.

Speaker 3: 41:14

What we do it definitely by a case scenario, right. You can't do like one broad stroke for everything, but it's case by case scenario and I think you know we depend a lot on, you know, the crew captains, to make the best, the best judgment, right, and they're obviously, if they don't feel comfortable making that judgment, there's many cases where it's not. Then we actually have a committee of of captains globally, of volunteers, that kind of come together to help work on any case. But that's only happened, you know, very, very few times, because usually things are sorted out in in a good manner. We really, I mean, we're proud of ourselves on being like a safe space for people and, yeah, I think it's the communities really watch out for each other. I feel like it's, you know, if someone sees something happening, people stand up and say something right. So I think that it's about like encouraging that within our communities and I think our captains do a great job of creating safe spaces in our cities around the world.

Speaker 1: 42:24

Yeah, and and and we we spoke before about the progression of you know runners and how. When you have founders who then get disconnected from the group, so the they, the group has its own identity. But then there's still the sense of ownership of the founders that might not be shared by the current, who feel like they've created the community. Like where, where do you see midnight runners going as say, in 10 years time there may be captains who it's, it's everything for them and but actually there's suddenly no longer actually connected in the way they think they are with the current members. Like how, how do you balance that? And how do you, how do you stay current and connected without, without that awkwardness and having to be almost excluding people as they, they no longer have that connection.

Speaker 3: 43:24

Well, I think there's there's two things here. One is how do you keep the you know the group healthy over time and how do you keep it as a space for people and new generations come in and get that same amount of positivity that they, that other captains have, and and community members have received from from that time? And then the I guess the next part is how do you keep communities engaged past the time where they're no longer just engaged and this is something that I, as, like the, the global community lead, really have been thinking about and trying to implement over the last several years is implementing a way for, you know, our, our, the captains, leaders of these groups to, you know, almost hand on the baton and each captain has has a speaker, so it's like a hand on your speaker to the next, the next person to step up, and I think it's really really healthy for communities to change in a ball of time, and I think that is, you know, we really enforce that by when I am starting a new city, I make it very clear. It's like nobody is going to be a captain of this forever, right, this is really like you know, something that you're you're volunteering towards, you're part of like building up this community and but at a certain point you do have to hand over your speaker to the next person who's going to be able to dedicate that much time. And you know we find that you know people in in general, you know community members, you know they can be extremely involved, right and like you know, out on a Tuesday night drinking until you know one in the morning after the run and really like networked with the community. But you know over a certain amount of years that you know maybe life situations change, they move country, maybe other kids, and they move out of the city and that's that is okay. And so you know, providing that opportunity for people to step down when it's right for them is really important and it's it's also important for the organization to make sure that you know these people are no longer just disengaged and just involved because they feel like they have to be involved with it. They want, they want to. We want it to be something that's like the next generation can still benefit as much. So I'm right now I'm not sure I mentioned I'm taking a step back from it at Runners because I think it's it's my time. You know I've been doing this for six years now.

Speaker 1: 45:48

That was going to be my next question.

Speaker 3: 45:50

Hand this over to, you know, the next generation of people and then beyond that. I think the communities are very tight and you know I, for example, have been meeting. So after you do step down or no longer show up to these communities, I think people could still stay involved and are very involved, like I recently went to show up to London and the first time I ever met midnight runners in London that was all these people person A, b and Z were a part of this community and now I went back to London and I hang with them all as friends and it's an organic community that grows and continues on and they've all started at midnight runners but they no longer tend maybe all of the runs. They don't really aren't involved in the day-to-day but they are part of the, I guess, alumni community. So I hung out with person A, b and Z at the house party and we watched the fireworks together and that's really really special. So it's really organic and there's still ways that these alumni can be involved and engaged with their global community.

Speaker 1: 47:01

Do you know where you're going next, then?

Speaker 3: 47:04

Yeah, so I guess this has been an amazing journey for me over the last six years. I mean, I've moved to cities around the world, I've lived in all these amazing places, brought me a lot of joy, but also looking towards being somewhere potentially Stability and having an apartment. I haven't. The last apartment that I had was in like 2018 in Berlin, and then since then, I've been living out of a suitcase. So it comes with its pros and cons, and I think that right now I'm looking to have a little bit of transition. Maybe the next challenge. I'm very confident that I can show up a new city and build a new running community, but what's next? And so, yeah, I'm currently doing a secret research project for Love Trails Festival and seeing. I'm doing some research for make something cool happen in North America.

Speaker 1: 48:06

That's very cool, and do you? I mean, I love that. I love Love Trails, and yeah, love Trails in North America would be amazing. Do you worry about? Do you think you're going to get bored, or do you worry that you're going to feel very stagnant? Should you when you've settled in a city?

Speaker 3: 48:30

No, I think it would be definitely difficult for me to do that. I think I do hope to have an apartment and, you know, be in one place and, I guess, enjoy the community that I create in one city, because I've been over the last several years. It's like I get to a point where I create this amazing vibrant community and there's so much excitement. People are, you know, birthday parties, planning trips, and you know all this amazing stuff is happening, and then at that point I've succeeded my job, I've created an amazing, flourishing community, and that's the time when I leave and that's that is actually sad. Like every time I do that, it's heart wrenching. So my goal is to stay in one place. But answer your question, I think it would be really hard for me not to go visit, because now I have so many amazing friends around the world. I mean I you know I've got FOMO now between you know Tokyo and London, right, and it's so. I have plans to visit you in Tokyo and London this year already and I know that I won't be working for Minnet Runners, but I'll still be very involved within that community and do you think the job has?

Speaker 1: 49:49

I've never I've assumed you've not had a significant partner in that time. I might be wrong on that in that has it? Has that? Has the job stopped you being able to move forward, potentially with someone who may have been the one?

Speaker 3: 50:08

Yes, potentially. I got deep quick, didn't it?

Speaker 2: 50:13

That got personal bloody hell. I'm not crying you're crying. Yeah, yes, what's the most acoustic? Are you such a good looking lad, like you know, and I always think why aren't you with someone? You've been such a quick partner.

Speaker 3: 50:29

No, that's why all of my relationships have ended, yes, and that's a difficult one, and whether I've been, you know, closing myself off emotionally to availability to be open to that, I think, or just not being able to fall through with that, being in the same physical location is really important to having a relationship, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:59

Is there someone at the back of your, at the back of your mind, who you think, actually, if I moved there now, I would love that to happen.

Speaker 3: 51:09

OK, david, you would love an answer, that wouldn't you? Absolutely, I want to make it happen. I feel like David knows the answer here oh, it does. I'm not answering that question.

Speaker 1: 51:25

Oh I thought if I paused for long enough.

Speaker 3: 51:29

We're going to keep the listener on their toes and figure out what happens to me next.

Speaker 1: 51:36

And in terms of the future growth of my netrunners. I've always suspected that actually the role you're doing is pretty hard to do for 99% of people and actually you're just very suited to it and I'm not convinced I mean, it can be a bloody hard hire if they're hiring someone to do this next and I'm not convinced that many people can actually can do it Like, do you know who's going to take over and do you think now that the platform is big enough, it is achievable for a lot of people, or do you think it's going to take someone very specific to be able to do what you've done?

Speaker 3: 52:28

Well, I mean, it's my job to have to be involved in the hiring process, so I've got to figure that out. I've got to figure that out. I will still be involved in the community and I'm going to be helping the board hire new people. So the way that Minerals are structured currently is that we have it's set up as a global CIC. So initially it was a limited company. Now we've restructured to a global CIC. Now it's a team of volunteers. Two captains from every city make up the board and I'm helping support the board to hire on new people when we do need new people. So I'm really proud with the way the organization is right. Now we're being able to start handing a lot of my tasks out. We currently have one colleague who's in Borotta, columbia, and we have a bunch of really extremely dedicated volunteers that are helping taking over some of the things and we're trying to work to decentralize a bit, because when we were scaling to the point where we were having 15 cities around the world and all of a sudden I'm trying to juggle communications and all these different time zones and over 300 captains globally, it became a lot for not a lot of people, especially with a little bit of. I mean not enough funding to do that and hire people to do it full time. So we're trying to decentralize. Yes, we do have to find someone new to be able to either start in new Midnet Runners communities or in new cities or help Midnet Runners in the background. So there's a lot of work that goes on behind making something happen. I think most people who show up to the events just think it's group people getting together and running. You know there's a lot of thought, energy and love that goes into making that experience amazing for someone showing up to a Midnet Runners event for the first time.

Speaker 1: 54:45

And would you say, because you've had the most exposure to the different locations, are they quite distinct from each other, the communities, or would you say that if you put one person into any of them it's almost the same or not at all?

Speaker 3: 55:04

You will definitely see a change in energy. I think there's some key elements that really make it a Midnet Runners experience. So it's high energy, there's a lot of music and it's very welcoming, and that's you know. Those are the key elements that we really try to make happen. And it's, you know, with a boot camp run and so, although they might technically have the same format, maybe minute runners in in Bogota is doing an eight kilometer boot camp run with four exercise stops and the London is doing an eight kilometer boot camp run with four exercise stops, but you'll show up to the two different ones. You're like, wow, this is some different energy I mean you can look at. First of all, you look at playlists, right, and in Bogota it's pure and Agathon it's, it's it's crazy and you know you get a mix of the music but also in in the energy, right. So I once showed up to a minute runners in Mexico city and we were. We had this big event going on and there's so much energy in the Agathon is blasting and we arrive at this exercise stop. And I look around and it's like guys, aren't we doing the exercise? Stop, people just totally forgot because everyone's dancing. You know twerking on the ground and and working, and that's something that I think. You arrive to minute runners in Berlin and they're bumping the techno and you show up and they're like, okay, I'll get, and like everyone's doing burpees and it's like a really like hard, intense vibe, but you'll get. You know, you show up to minute runners in different cities and they all have their their, their own twist.

Speaker 1: 56:41

And and given now your, your experience, and of which cities it can and can't work in, and based on those constraints, how many Minarina chapters do you think they could be globally?

Speaker 3: 56:56

I would love to do it in in my time. I would like to see minute runners go to 25 cities around the world, but right now we're trying to consider when or if we are going to expand into new cities and, obviously, how. Maybe it won't be a full-time employee, maybe we're going to hire on someone specific, because I think we're going to. You know, if we hire in, if we're doing minute runners in Seoul next, let's say right I I did find it difficult opening minners in Japan. Yeah, I had to. I had to learn Japanese or very basic Japanese in order to get around it, also be able to present the exercises in Japanese at the start. And I think it might be a strategic hire to hire someone for three months with that right energy. But again, it's to find that right person with the right experience that understands the culture to open up in that city. It's going to be difficult. So I guess a combination of you know where we want to be, where we want to expand to, and you know what is feasible with and possible within our community. So I think I would love to see it at 25 cities, but the way and how we're going to get there is is something that I got to work to define.

Speaker 1: 58:18

Amazing, and we we haven't mentioned Run the Roof too. We might as well plug it there quickly, but we've talked about it on the podcast previously, because we I went to the premiere in East London. I think we probably met there, or JD and I did. But yeah, if, how would you describe the film Run the Roof of People? I haven't heard of it before.

Speaker 3: 58:41

Well, it started out not as a film, an idea for a film, but started as a drunken bet in a pub in London where we we had too many beers spun around, pointed them up and then we realized it was to Jikistan and after, I guess like a bit of like obsession looking at the route we found, discovered this route from the board of Afghanistan to the board of Kurdistan and China and we figured out that if we run a marathon a day or or a bit over for seven days, then we could do that within our vacation time. So myself, jodi and Jodi two Jodies we started as just a running journey and then fast forward. A couple of our friends got a whiff of it and said you know, we're going to make a documentary about this and these are extremely, extremely talented documentary filmmakers and put so much love and energy into this and we're able to capture the really the true energy of like running and exploring a new country in a new region. We ran through the Bartang Valley, which was part of the old Silk Road, so we got to explore a lot of the culture and history of the region and they captured that with a film that ended up winning the BAMP Mountain Film Festival Audience Choice Award, as well as a bunch of awards around the world, so it was really it's it's really crazy to see, to see yourself on a big screen, and that was. That was a wonderful experience.

Speaker 1: 1:00:12

I know it was a great document. I mean it's really well told, really well told, and you're all final three of these, so that helps. And well, is there anything we can do as a podcast to help you then in your next move, in your in finding love, in finding jobs?

Speaker 2: 1:00:24

Oh, my God.

Speaker 3: 1:00:25

Tell us tell us game tell us, david, you really want to, you really want to find me love.

Speaker 2: 1:00:30

I think really want to match my care. This is of course, of course. Are you like looking into the camera going? Please choose London. Please choose London.

Speaker 1: 1:00:41

I've got a black book, black book lined up, no, um yeah, is there anything? Else we can do as a podcast to kind of help you, or anything else to end on, I guess.

Speaker 3: 1:00:50

Well, I have, um, I have, I have an idea. I have something that I believe. I want to put a bunch of names. I want to get a bunch of people who've watched the running roof documentary and friends put a bunch of ideas and trail ideas, um exploration ideas into a hat and pick it up. I want to pick a team of people around the world and see if we can make another crazy adventure happen. Um, we're gonna. I'm gonna have to have a couple more beers to really flesh out the idea, but we're uh, I've got, I've got some cooking.

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

Done. Well, we will put out to the podcast some ideas of what could be a follow up to uh, to running to Jika Stan, and I'm sure they're gonna come up with one good one and 20 shit ones, but there might be that there might be that good one.

Speaker 3: 1:01:41

You're so generous there, oh that just means I am absolutely screwed, because if I'm reaching to a hat, the odds of picking that one good one is not high, that's true.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

And then people want to follow you on socials and things like that. What's the best handle for them to find you?

Speaker 3: 1:01:58

Uh, you could follow my personal Instagram, which is um at intrepid underscore soul. It's all about S O L E.

Speaker 1: 1:02:08

Nice, nice, good name, good name. Okay, thanks so much for coming on. Good luck with your next step and when you uh, you have that, that challenge, let us know about it, because we want to tell that story as well.

Speaker 3: 1:02:19

Amazing, Amazing Guys. Thank you so much for having me Really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

Yeah, he's. Um, I've been wanting to get gave on for a while and we, we kept on missing each other on texts and stuff. I, I, I think he's. I don't know many people that could have achieved what he's achieved with with establishing me no runners, cause the first time he's established in London there was a group of friends already. To go into a city blinds pretty tough. I could just just think of that. He's done 25 or 24 times he's, I can't remember. Now Did he say 18? He wants 25, 18. So 16 times he's gone into a new city and created a community. I mean, that's, that's astounding.

Speaker 2: 1:03:09

That is straight. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? Just starting that from scratch, as opposed to, you know, with a you know I spoke, I imagine, like things with that's. That's a weird thing, isn't it? It's like you do need to go in and do it. I think that's the same thing happened with kind of park run, didn't it? Park run didn't just like someone goes. Oh you know, do you know, I want to start a park run here. It's like you do need to kind of nurture it and you need to put the infrastructure in place and and build that little group and really get that group group together and working and established and and even the fact the interesting thing about that I thought was the fact that when we was talking about Tokyo, because every single week we had to apply for permits for different things, but they're still doing it, it's not as if they're just gone oh well, you know, oh, it's painful.

Speaker 1: 1:03:55

It's now solved, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:57

That's it. It's just. But that's. That's just what we do. That's we just want to. We have to do that, so it's a dupe.

Speaker 1: 1:04:02

And actually that was one of the when we were speaking to Ivan from either from a good gym. The main criticism when we asked the questions was why does it cost them like £10,000 to to start a good, good gym chapter? And actually you know his, his, his he was speaking to that that you need such a high level of commitment and support to be able to to get it past the first bit of excitement where everyone comes for a while. What happens when it's winter and it's wet and it's dark? How do you still have the, the energy to keep that going and building and like fighting through the worst times and not just the easiest, like times in the sun? But yeah, it's, it's, it's. I've still not been to one. I've been to them at Love Trails. I've, I've been to their beer run with, with sweetheart and and and Gila, I think, ben and and Ben Austin, and. But I need to get to one because I've got so many friends who've done them or who do them and it, it. It does seem to be like good exercise, which is quite rare. It's quite rare to have good exercise and good social. You tend to get one or the other.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

Aren't you a bit old for it now?

Speaker 1: 1:05:20

Yeah, I'll be at the back. That's what I was asking about. About, about how, about how?

Speaker 2: 1:05:24

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a it's, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 1:05:32

Think about in 500 people is a massive amount. Try to organize 500 people that have just rocked up that don't know each other, and you're then or like, in a structured way, I think.

Speaker 2: 1:05:46

I think you should just use it to your advantage 500 people listening to music in a frenzy in parts of the capital, like you and you still like I know the term own the streets is being used as like the more of a reclaim the streets. But there is something slightly like we could do some real damage here, like we could. We could like let's, let's, let's, let's go and like literally take over, take over St Paul's as 500 of us. I'll never stop us. They've got a minimal star. We could have it. We could have St Paul's for at least 24 hours and there's nothing they could do about it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:15

You think they should just start ram raiding shops or things like that Ram raiding?

Speaker 2: 1:06:18

monuments. We're going to have monument. We're going to try to get everyone into monument. That's what that will be. That should be the next task.

Speaker 1: 1:06:27

Or just freak people out 500 bags of sugar suddenly appear somewhere, or 500 anything anywhere would be. But do you, if you'd like this episode, other ones it'd be good to listen to? We spoke to Danny Bent quite a few times about starting up Project Awesome. That was another free health class in the city that that exploded. It was super big. For a while we spoke to Jenny Braga when he spoke about starting up, starting up Mid-Outrunners and starting up the Mogadishu marathon in Somaliland. What other ones, jenny, any other episodes that kind of link in with this? Try to think, because we have done quite a few on on run crews and the like.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Yeah, we've got a few, I suppose a few of the US based groups as well. Those are groups that have kind of emerged from saying not quite run crews more. They're kind of more virtual, but along the lines of talking about the exact thing. There is a gap in terms of need and something has emerged and the popularity of it has just proven the fact that running clubs haven't served them well, whatever they have.

Speaker 1: 1:07:36

it hasn't served well. Tim from London City Runners. He gave a really good interview where he was talking about opening their clubhouse and just by running one loop of the Thames it's slowly at the same time every week people just loved the fact that you knew what you were getting. There wasn't that worry about being judged or not being fast enough. Well, dude, thanks for listening. If you've got any suggestions of future guests, then message me, david at badboyrunningcom, or ping us on Instagram. And please do rate and review, because it really helps with our credibility and our visibility, which helps us get good guests in the future.

Speaker 2: 1:08:14

If you want to join the conversation, head over to Facebook, type in bad boy running. Ask three questions and join in. If you want merch store badboyrunningcom, head over there, get some. Well, you can't get mugs, we've run out of mugs, but some other stuff you can get that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:28

Yeah, the stuff is not as good as mugs. You can get that stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:08:34

All the really good stuff is sold out, but you can have the substandard stuff that we haven't been able to sell for ages. But we are knocking like a pound or something off it. Yeah, so have that stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:08:46

Wow Get that stuff. It probably won't be in time for Christmas, but you don't like them that much do you say they don't deserve something in?

Speaker 2: 1:08:53

time. If anyone you know, all right. If anyone you know wants a BBR thing for Christmas, they don't deserve to have it by Christmas in many ways.

Speaker 1: 1:09:04

Yeah, they don't Next Christmas, even Next Christmas never. Thanks for listening, guys, and we will see you next time.

Speaker 2: 1:09:10

See you later.

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

Bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 3: 1:09:37

Fuck you, buddy.