Bad Boy Running

Ep 521 | TBS UTMB's commentator sacking fallout, and is French milk performance-enhancing?

December 15, 2023
Bad Boy Running
Ep 521 | TBS UTMB's commentator sacking fallout, and is French milk performance-enhancing?
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Who would have thought that sipping French milk could land you a failed drug test? We're bringing you the fascinating story of cyclists Toon Ayerts and Sherry Boussoud who faced just that situation. We're diving deep into the mysterious world of anabolic steroids, bizarre food risks, and the impact of substances like letrosol on the human body.

Raising an alarm for all the trail runners out there, we discuss the bone-chilling incident of Tom Evans' mugging in Cape Town. With an increase in crime rates amidst economic turmoil, it's time to address the elephant in the room - How can runners ensure their safety, especially in potentially perilous areas? We've got some crucial insights for you on this front.

Finally, we're not shying away from the recent controversies shaking the running community. We discuss the UTMB's eyebrow-raising decision to not re-invite Kureen Malcolm back for Western States and explore its potential implications on their reputation. This conversation takes a detour into discussing the responsibilities of race organizations in ensuring gender equality and the importance of constructive criticism. Trust us, this is a conversation you wouldn't want to miss!

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Speaker 1:

Hey, do bad as well. It's a bad boy running. We've just recorded the bad stuff and in this week's episode it is an absolute belter. Not only do we we talk about whether you can drink French milk Jodie obviously has some very strong views on that and more that they can make you fair a drugs test, which is one of the claims that is out there at the moment and it seems it's quite a strong claim. We also talk about the sad the fact that UTMB have decided not to bring Kureen Malcolm back for Western States next year Crazy and the impact that's had on the community and the response to that. And we also talk about the dangers of running in some countries. As a trail runner, shout out to Tom Evans we hope you're OK. Buddy Got mugged, sadly, in the buildup to Old Trail, cape Town. All of that is coming up in this episode. It's super fun. So take it away, nick.

Speaker 2:

They're bad, they're boys and occasionally they talk about running. Yes, it's the bad boy running podcast with your hosts Jodie Reinsford and David Heller. Come back, baby, come back, bye, bye, bye, bye bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 1:

I must admit I was a clone to be messing around, but that doesn't mean that you have to leave town. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. Welcome to Badest Dude, bad Boy Running. You've missed out on some very boring yeti microphone chats, as we learn the technicalities of this podcast.

Speaker 2:

Oh, surely, Surely, people. What we're going to do is we're going to bottle that up and put it on the YouTube channel as behind the scenes content. Yeah yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you're going to love it. Don't pretend that you won't.

Speaker 1:

You're going to love it.

Speaker 2:

You want to see what happens behind the mic? Nothing, really nothing.

Speaker 1:

I can't believe it's not professional behind the mic you would have thought You're revealing all your secrets, what? Mind blowing, mind blowing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the veil has fallen.

Speaker 1:

Unbelievable. But I am deep at it. I've already told JD I'm doing stretches while we record this podcast because not structural healing.

Speaker 2:

It's not structural healing.

Speaker 1:

Maybe under the desk, but not that JD can see. Actually, that's something that did you find this? So I've got some running stuff to talk about, but I've found my testosterone levels have dropped massively since we've had the baby.

Speaker 2:

Wait a minute. How often are you measuring them?

Speaker 1:

I can just tell. I can just tell yeah, the, that's totally normal, but that's totally normal.

Speaker 2:

That is totally normal that you as soon as I mean, from an evolutionary perspective, that's what's supposed to happen, like you become a father. Your testosterone levels, because, obviously.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2:

Life doesn't want you going out and it's amazing Spreading more of that hell hard seed anywhere else at the moment it wants you to just nurture.

Speaker 1:

It's so good Not when you hear of people who've taken the recent injection for appetite suppression and they say it's almost as if like a side of me, like this voice in my head has been turned off. That's constantly there to eat. It's so nice having a lower testosterone level where you're not just like I feel like my whole life I've been holding in this raging hornbag teenager and now it's gone and I'm like I could just get on with my day without having this constant voice going oh, oh, oh, it's so good.

Speaker 2:

Oh OK, that's interesting. You know it's funny Like it does. I mean, I think that's the impression that most people have of you, but you actually confirm that.

Speaker 1:

That's excellent as well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm having to constantly reign in that part of me.

Speaker 2:

Carry on hell arse.

Speaker 1:

It's weird the way it's. I do. I've always wondered whether at some point, we're going to see men as being victims of testosterone and this whole toxic masculinity and the fact that men are generally more likely to be terrible people. Will there become a reframing of society where they're almost like well, poor me and my testosterone forcing me to be this person I don't want to be?

Speaker 2:

Well, no, I do know what. That's a really interesting thing Because I was thinking about this recently and about how much discussion there is about hormones and the fact that women are full victim to the hormonal levels changing and things like that, and I was like, well, that's interesting, but for some reason, men, obviously they don't have the same fluctuation in hormones and different changes in the body, it's just constant. It's just constant barrage, but still the same thing applies you are the victim of your hormones. I wouldn't necessarily say a victim, that's just the reality of life. So how come some are acceptable and others aren't? What are we going to say that? Oh, this hormone. It's OK to be at the mercy of this hormone, but this hormone is. Because of that, you're never excused from anything. You're absolutely right. It's like we are all victims of our hormones and regulation of hormones, and I think probably that's why it's misunderstanding about hormones as well. I mean, who used to talk about it? I mean it is actually. It is in fact how discussing the hormones is only a relatively recent thing, really, in terms of factual people talking about it on TV and things like that.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's because discussion of women's issues is only a relatively recent thing, to be fair in the media, which is probably why that it's now that actually we're looking to understand more about female anatomy.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, whatever you say, I know, but it's not as if it was even like a discussion, you know, you think at least it would be a discussion within the GP's office, but it never was. It never was and it's still now like, I think you know, most people would find that there's a frustration that actually, like GCs, just don't really have any real understanding of things like that on both sides. So, yeah, I don't know, it's weird, isn't it, how things have changed. But yeah, your hormones, your testosterone, jesus Christ, it's like, you know, there's something we'd be talking about.

Speaker 1:

But it does make me wonder about my track. So I've signed up to a 10K next weekend that I'm going to run because I just thought.

Speaker 2:

Hardcore yeah.

Speaker 1:

I've hit some, I've started to not be as shit as I have been since the injury. And right, what can I do with this? Well, I'm not going to sign up for a marathon straight away and even if I do, that's not going to give me that much motivation day to day and, realistically, that's not going to help me. I'm not going to be able to do the training I want to at the moment because of hercules. So, whereas a 10K like I signed up maybe a week ago, so two and a half weeks out, like yeah, actually doing, getting a bit of motivation to do some harder sessions I haven't got a 10K PB. I think I only ever ran one, which was my first ever marathon cycle.

Speaker 2:

So what are you calling it now? What are you calling time wise?

Speaker 1:

I don't know. I think if I got under 37 minutes I think that would be pretty hard to do. No-transcript.

Speaker 2:

What do you? This is quite useful actually, so knowing where you are at the moment, what is going to be your training for that, is that just gonna be a couple of like intense session? I mean that's not a huge amount you can do, yeah.

Speaker 1:

What's that gonna be? What's it gonna be? What's it gonna be then? Okay, what's that gonna?

Speaker 2:

be then.

Speaker 1:

So basically, before I ran like the Sub 18 5K, which I was genuinely surprised about I did, I think, three sessions of 400s, 400 meters, where I did 400 meter reps. That was maybe 10 of them or eight of them of 35 second pauses, so that is almost simulating. You know, haven't got much of a break there. So your heart rates up. It's like running a 5K. Then the next week I upped it to maybe was it eight to 10? But I increased the length of time in between and so it went up to think 55 seconds. And then in between six of them, between five of them, I had a two minute rest, so my heart rate came right down. I had a rest so I could do faster. And then the next week I did 12 with a break at six. I can't remember what the rest was there, but I think it was long was it longer or not? And so I was getting just getting my top speed faster. So now that I'm doing this 10K, last week I went out and I did four times one miles as my interval, what I hope to be around 10K pace. Later today I'm gonna go out, which is why I need to stretch. I haven't stretched because I haven't had time in two days and I find if I don't stretch, then when I come to run I just feel tight and don't run well. But I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna do three times two miles and I'm gonna have probably a two minute rest in between each of those intervals, and so that, to me, is gonna allow my body to recover and run the second and the third ones a lot faster than if I was doing. I'd probably normally do like a minute rest if I was doing something like that, and so that way, actually, if I bring together those six miles, that's a 10K and I'm gonna run them faster than I can run a 10K currently, and so actually it's replicating what it's gonna be on the race day. So I'm hoping that, followed by my weekends, could be shot to pieces because I'm doing filming and stuff, but I'm hoping that will then allow me to get my body ready for a 10K. I'll probably go and do some speed work on Saturday, depending on schedule, do a longer run on the Sunday and then maybe some short sprints on a Tuesday and do a tiny little taper. But one thing I've changed, I've realized. So my whole life, from 20, let's say, 2011 onwards, I've run probably six days a week, yeah, until I got injured. And I'm looking at my life now and thinking, oh God, I just can't be fucked to do that, and I could try and do that, but I just don't think I would. And so instead I'm thinking right, actually, what should I do? Let's stay in for four days a week, two at the weekend, two midweek and suddenly, like the pressure I feel now is so much less because actually I only need to do one hard session in the week and I can do a tempo run on Saturday, and so that's infinitely achievable. And last night I was working like this first day, first day kind of sent me back at work yesterday.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And this is where we still haven't figured out how to do it because I was up at, I think, five looking after the baby. Then Briggsie came down. I was kind of ready to work at nine, but at the end of the day it was then like fuck, I haven't done any running, I want to run. I was meant to do the session yesterday. We had friends coming over at seven to watch the women's football and so I was like right, I'm just going to go out and jog four miles. So I've done a run Because I know I only need to do one session in the week and so I can do that tomorrow. That's fine, Whereas before, if I was doing six days a week, I'd be like, well, I need to do this session this day and that session is so rigid, and also every day you're waking up thinking, oh God, and you can't adjust it, Whereas if I were fewer sessions, I can miss a day and just do it the day after or do it earlier. So I don't know that's useful for how. I've just changed my approach and I think when the trouble will be that at the moment I'm running without doing any core, any of my weight training that I need to do to stop me being injured. So at some point I'm going to have to reintroduce.

Speaker 2:

That'll be fine. That won't come back to bite you on the arse or anything. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so that was just something I was like during baby time.

Speaker 2:

Next week's episode. Everyone. Just a quick review, which is that's right. The headlines out, shall we? They were just injured, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So at some point I need to introduce the weights and I'm like shit, how am I going to do that?

Speaker 2:

How are we going to do that without the testosterone? The testosterone drop as any, Because I imagine you were lifting big.

Speaker 1:

Oh mate, I was just the only thing bigger than the weights. I was lifting my massive balls pumping for that testosterone hanging out on my shorts, just dangling around. Yeah, I mean, when I go back it's going to be, I'll be out of sync with weights and not the testosterone. Maybe I won't even be able to lift the bar that I put weights onto.

Speaker 2:

I don't know why it is. I just picture you when you go to the gym. For some reason, in an 80s style, you find the bleh-tard, the leggings and leg warmers and your routine is less muscle bro, iron monkey type thing and more of oh, let's put some leg weights on and have a couple of those pastel-colored handweights and you're jogging to the music while looking in the mirror.

Speaker 1:

And I walk like Ace Ventura when I walk around the gym, you know that Dun dun, dun, dun, dun, dun dun. Everything's the music. I tend to get in there. The weird thing is, as a runner, you realize that we are pretty strong on some weights that others aren't. She'd go in there and you do a car phrase machine every now and then because your machines are done. You're like, oh, actually I can almost max out this machine. How does that work?

Speaker 2:

when you've got Car phrase machine is absolutely ridiculous though.

Speaker 1:

Isn't it?

Speaker 2:

I mean it's always easy to get on the car phrase machine. Like no one's ever on the car phrase machine. Sometimes some of the machines you just like they didn't really need a machine for this, and I think car phrase is one of those. What is your car phrase machine like? Is it the one where you stand up and you have the pressure on your shoulders and you're doing the car phrases? Or is it that stupid one where you sit down and you push the thing away from you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you sit down and push the one that is so stupid.

Speaker 2:

It's just easy to stand on a step and just do it yeah. Yeah, but you're right, you're a riot.

Speaker 1:

I've got some news that I'm sure you probably instinctively felt already that this is big. This is big news and it ties into this. Let's just say this story I've been reading about is full of facts.

Speaker 2:

I was just saying. Maybe number two is not on the way already, is it?

Speaker 1:

No one might know my level of testosterone. That is not going to be a worry. No, no, no. So this is a delight. This ties into your deep, deep racist views on the French.

Speaker 2:

They're not racist views. If they're true, I'm not.

Speaker 1:

True, this is true.

Speaker 2:

I just want to point out to everyone that I'm not racist about the French. Well, first, you can't be racist about the French. Secondly, it is fact that they're obsessed with bureaucracy. I mean the word bureaucracy cannot be any more French.

Speaker 1:

Now, how do you feel about French dairy?

Speaker 2:

I'm pretty repelled by French dairy. Why French dairy? French dairy sounds like a really trendy restaurant in Hoxton or something, oh it does it?

Speaker 1:

does, doesn't it? Yeah, or slightly seedy, yeah, something Anyway.

Speaker 2:

So this is the headline. I don't know why you're going with that, but that was going to reveal something about you. You quickly shut down.

Speaker 1:

I'll have the French dairy. Please, honey, Give me the full word.

Speaker 2:

A menu in Amsterdam.

Speaker 1:

So this is the headline from. It's a cycling article, I'm afraid, but it says wake up to anything but milk. Pro cyclists will not to eat or drink dairy products. At cyclocosts race after positive doping tests. So this is an amazing story where I don't know. I don't know whether this is a great angle of like uncovering my ass for a failed drug test or whether this is genuine, but so it turns out. There's two cyclists great names, by the way one called Toon Ayerts and one called Sherry Boussoud it's definitely how you pronounce those names. That's excellent. They've both blamed their recent drug test fails on the dairy they consumed while racing in Flammanville, normandy, which is the site of this Sunday and I've probably read in fact, this is, yeah, the site of Sunday just coming cyclocosts cross World Cup rounds. So they're genuinely a warning people not to take any of the dairy because of their failed drug test. That happened in Flammanville.

Speaker 2:

So what's in the dairy? What's in the dairy that they blame it?

Speaker 1:

So there's this, and these are all words that I've never heard of before Flammanville Toon, but also letrosol. So letrosol apparently is, and I need to quickly skim read again this article to remind myself. They were found to have letrosol in their blood, and letrosol isn't itself a, it's not something that aids performance by itself, but it's used to block estrogen during the treatment of breast cancer, and that is due to its ability to boost testosterone levels. So instead of taking testosterone, you could take this, and it would naturally increase the and reduce the feminizing effects of anabolic steroids, right? So when you get big weight lifters who have little, tiny balls bit like how I feel at the moment, that is because of the feminizing effects of anabolic steroids. And so, and it turns out that actually they've started to use letrasol for for cattle, and I'm just trying to skim read why this is.

Speaker 2:

But the trouble is at the moment of course, of course there's wait a minute, wait a minute. So you're saying letrasol could be presence in cows, present in cows as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So there's all sorts of really sinister excuses that they could come up with it.

Speaker 1:

And so but the? But it also turns out that Albert E Contador said he had tainted beef from the same region back in 2010 when he, he posited, tested positive for clen butter roll. But they've actually said that this. It sounds like they think this could be genuine because letrasol is used to synchronize. That they're giving, they're suggesting that it's given to cows to synchronize their cycles in the same way. You know the when females go together and they. They then sync to the alpha females cycle. They're suggesting that, potentially, letrasol has been given to these cows so they can they can all be on the same cycle so that when they come to bring in the ball for fertilization, they know that all of the cows are on heat at the same time. Now the trouble is there are that they don't test milk for this at the moment, so actually they don't know whether this is the case or not, and these two cyclists have failed for a very unusual drug to be taking. To be fair, and you've got to think, if they're taking this drug, it's they've done their research to be like. This is the one we want to take, but the worry is now that if you take yogurt or milk while you're in this region. You may also fail a drugs test.

Speaker 2:

Well, do you know what I would suggest to people? To not, under any circumstances, have any dairy whatsoever, for fear that this may be infected across the whole of Europe. So, if you don't want to, if you don't want your car to run the time to be, you know, struck off because of some random testing and everything, please pick up the Oatley, ditch the dairy.

Speaker 1:

But surely?

Speaker 2:

French and the cyclists are helping bring down the dairy industry.

Speaker 1:

But only only. Isn't performance enhancing. Unlike this, maybe they can market this as specifically taking this type of milk will help not only reduce your testy shrinkage, but a performance potentially.

Speaker 2:

But don't measure what they put in animals before giving you the milk from those animals. It's slightly worrying, isn't it, considering the number of problems we've had, you know when? When you know mad cow disease happened like the French were the first to basically British? Be no way, they were the first one, and it turns out the science. What test was in our animal? What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, oh yeah. You need to fill in 3000 forms and have all these medical things, but we don't actually test anything useful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah and, by the way, do bad, as Jodie is recording in a Starbucks at the moment. So what I've been trying to do in the last paragraph is trying to get Jodie to talk about testies out loud in the Starbucks, where he's surrounded by a lot of random people who don't realize he probably didn't realize he's recording one of the world's greatest podcasts.

Speaker 2:

What you don't understand, though, is that everybody around here is literally talking about testosterone and hormones. Over time, that's what? That's just a normal chat in a Starbucks, now, do you not know? Oh, you're going to have you Wait a minute. Have you done on it? Have you done an NCT coffee shop play date?

Speaker 1:

yet You're not done one of those yet? No, they've done, but they had bubbles and they based in bubbles around ours yesterday.

Speaker 2:

The girls no, no, no, no, no, no. You got wait, you got to go on mass to a coffee shop and then really piss people off Like a bunch of absolute Harrodans by one coffee, stay there for five hours, you know, get your buggies everywhere, annoy everyone, that kind of stuff. That's the. That's the. It's because of that A lot of cafes in Brighton all of a sudden went from having, like you know, normal tables and chairs that like really high tables and really high chairs and, you know, like stools and stuff that make us as unkid, unbaby group friendly as possible. Really Because they, because, because they are costing them profits and stuff like that. The number of the number of coffee shops that they've made it kind of impossible for a baby group to meet there now is unbelievable, which is why they always just end up going into, like costas and Starbucks now.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. Oh, that doesn't happen around here. They, they love the. What is? You've got the pink pound for the gay pound. What's the baby pounds? What's the? What's the color of that Brown type of pound? Is it the brown?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's the, I'm sure there's. I'm sure there's a, I don't know. I'm not necessarily sure that there is a money thing, because normally what happens is that it is that thing of going to all. Parents have an entitlement and they can bring whatever shit they want with them and eat it in a, in a coffee shop or restaurant or whatever, because you've got a baby with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so you're just like oh, oh yeah. Maybe it's getting boob. Why can't I get something?

Speaker 2:

It's just like you know, I'm good, yeah, exactly, that's it. So, yeah, I think that's the, that's the, that's the issue, it's. You know, I'm that's what. I need you to understand the dynamic of that. I want you to understand the dynamic of the other dynamic is that. Have you been out? Have you been out pushing the baby around the stuff? And you found all the secret hidden places in shops and other things where they have baby changing that you never knew about until you've had a baby Not yet.

Speaker 1:

We once our babies in the pram. Her just sleeps and he's happy to ride in his own shit. He's, he's, he's got. No, he's going to be a. He's going to love obstacle racing. It'll just be wallowing in that for hours. So it's, it's not been an issue.

Speaker 2:

Is that what you say? After 12 hours? He loves it, absolutely loves it. It's not. It's like a mug Unless. Like a mug Unless.

Speaker 1:

It's full, unless the nabbing is a little bit of a bug. It's like a mug.

Speaker 2:

Unless it's full, unless the nabbing is falling off him, he's fine, it's absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Base, yeah, and then it takes care of itself, right?

Speaker 2:

Self cleaning. It's a self cleaning, but did.

Speaker 1:

Did we talk about Tom Evans last week? No, did you hear about? Did you hear about what happened to?

Speaker 2:

Tom oh, wait a minute. Wait, maybe we did. Yeah, come on, what happened to Tom? Now that you've, mentioned it.

Speaker 1:

So Tom was on a training run at Ultrachel Cup Cape Town. He was mugged at a machete point.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you mentioned it last time. I don't think we did have much detail. Okay, I think you were talking about it in terms of midnight runners, weren't we? I think, in that context of saying that midnight runners is, you know, groups of people feel safe together in places they wouldn't otherwise, I think, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a really horrific story. Where? So Tom had gone out to race what for many people is the last quantifier of the year for getting his stones, and while on a run he got in a tussle. It sounded as if at first he fought back you know he's an ex-soldier but then they pulled out a machete and they took everything his kind of watch, his phone and he was so shaken by it. This was a number of days before the race, but he just didn't feel like he wasn't in the right headspace to then run because he was going to be going out onto the same trails and God, I mean, that makes it's. That's fairly crazy. It gives you an insight. We spoke to Thiband quite a few a couple of years ago, who was the South African Trail Running Champion, and we also spoke to what was his name, the lovely gentleman who'd run the world record for a cent in, I think, 24 hours or something, up and down Table Mountain. Oh yeah, but yeah it's. How do you deal with something like that, with one of the international nature of racing now is people are going to places that are quite dangerous and people are running with a phone and a watch I mean, some watches now are what? 700 pounds or so.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, absolutely yeah, and that's it. And you've got it all on show, isn't it? I always think about that with children. I mean, you think about a child who didn't used to carry around a phone and stuff like that, and now Frida's got a phone and she's carrying around a few hundred pounds worth of things and makes children a target and stuff, regardless of whether she's got it or not. The perception is that most children of our age do have some kind of device itself. So yeah, I don't, yeah, it's really, and it does make you wonder, it's really difficult to negotiate.

Speaker 1:

Like how South Africa, if how South Africans, because it is still a Danish place. I won't say who, but one of my friends last week had a breeze block thrown through their car window at a stop sign in an attempt to try and mug them and they had to, like drive away to avoid basically being mugged. Some people had died in the area. Like wow, actually it's super hard to be a trail runner in some countries where it just isn't safe to be out by yourself in some areas Like how, yeah, really, really, really, really sad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think there's a. There's a general thing, isn't there, though? Isn't there Because the I mean it's not quite the same, but when we're in recession or when there's like a cost-to-living crisis and stuff like that, crime obviously goes up and it's all the kind of it starts off with like the pesty crime and stuff like shopping, like yeah, I don't know if you've like noticed over the last I don't know whether you go to like kind of big supermarkets and stuff or things like that, but big supermarkets and stuff have now got, because they self-check out. It's such a kind of a big thing in them. They've now had to implement. I'll say it again, there are big changes. They've implemented this thing where it's self-checkout, but then you've got to get your receipt and go through a little kind of like blocked-off gate.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you've got a scan yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because there's obviously the and those small measures are fine in the supermarkets, but it means that all smaller shops have like got this massive increase in shoplifting. Like small shops have just absolutely kind of screwed by. Like even things like fuel theft, like rhythm, massively people driving off without paying for fuel and stuff like that, and so it does then, you know, then have a knock-on effect in terms of things like muggings and thefts and stuff like that, and it does. And it seems you know runners, people who are out with you know, obviously, all of the things that go with it. I mean even shoes. Like you know it's stealing some shoes off someone and blocking them again. You're going to get a lot of money for those as well. So it's like you're going out.

Speaker 1:

Well, some of the shoes. You only get one use out of them, so actually, if they're wearing them, it's already too late.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but yeah, exactly, but yeah. It does make you think, doesn't it? As a runner actually A cyclist, I think is slightly different, isn't it? It's quite hard to kind of mug a cyclist when they're not as much easier to steal their bike. Steal the bike when it's like parked up and stuff like so you don't have that kind of direct threat, but you can get a lot from a runner.

Speaker 1:

And a runner's going to be in a place that is more isolated than a cyclist typically.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, exactly, you're going to, you know, and they're going to be. You know it's hard If you go out for a long run. It's hard to be so completely aware all the time, isn't it? Because you're going to be, you know, tired and, like you know, fatigued, and you're going to be thinking about your food and thinking about you know how you're feeling and stuff like that. And just to have that level of awareness the whole time Is it? Is it difficult thing to have? So, yeah, I think it's. I don't know, I don't know what the answer to something like that is, but it just goes to show, doesn't it? I mean, literally anyone anywhere can, can suffer from it.

Speaker 1:

Or whether you know whether actually is it better to, for some runs, run with your you're watching your pocket or to run like not visible or just shit watches again, because actually the reality of most watches the watch I first had, other than being a brick like eight years ago, still does everything I need it to do. I'm not. I'm not looking at power, I'm not looking at heart rate, just want my approximate time, distance, speed and actually you don't need to spend.

Speaker 2:

But it's perception, isn't it? It's like you know, I don't even think many people in mugging it'll be like carefully looking at the watch on your hand and stuff like that. I think they're just the assumption is that most people will have a phone on them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but at least if I've been mugged with a 50, a 50 pound third hand watch, I don't feel so bad, and actually they keep on and if it keeps on happening, then they're going to be mugging people less, right? If every person who goes out has got a 50 pound shitty watch they're like well, what's the point in this? I'm just sending it back to them for 40 quid.

Speaker 2:

I think I don't think the theft part of it's the bad part. I think the mugging part is the bad part. I don't think many people have that bothered about. Actually we are. I think this is the. It's the mugging in the first place. So not have not been mugged is the. I would think it's the thing that most people are worried about. Yeah, but I do like the idea that the entirety of the running community makes a commitment and then communicates that to the whole of the low level criminal community that we're only going to be wearing cryptic with watches. Is this wait a minute? Is this a new business idea you could have?

Speaker 1:

got these 49 pound watches for a draw full of all my old watches that I'm there, I want to get rid of?

Speaker 2:

I do. Do you know what? I still have this, I think it's a Casio shockwave that I wore for the MDS, which was unbelievable, and it's just sat in my drawer and it's still perfectly on time and stuff like that, and it's just like the most reliable, Ready to go for your next MDS right. Ready to go? Ready to go? Yeah, absolutely Well.

Speaker 1:

I've been talking about MDS acronyms UT, utmb, utmb.

Speaker 2:

They've done it again haven't they Well what's that?

Speaker 1:

So it does seem at the moment, whatever UTMB do is, is that I think it's almost reached a tipping point. It's reached a tipping point where the facade has been pulled away, the faith has been lost, and so now, whenever they post something, everyone just piles in with comments like, yeah, you may say that, but what about this, what about that, what about that? So the last week, sad announcement Karine Malcolm, who's been the commentator for Western states for years. She's not been renewed, basically, Really. Yeah, it's very well. It's not strange at all in that she is known for being quite vocal and she's very She'll give her opinions on when the footage isn't great or when there is an equal coverage for the women or when they're showing too much of the men, for example, which is how it should be right. And we've had a golden trail. We had, because of technical issues, the very first Eurosport live at the finish line of Mont Blanc. There was an issue with the camera on the finish line and so when Sophia Locley the first ever Eurosport winner of the golden trail they didn't catch it. They cut to Peter Engel coming in third, showing him running down yeah, coming in, or something like that, when she was winning, or something similar. And obviously we in the studio were like what the hell? We're so sorry, viewer, we don't know why this happened. Like this is obviously not acceptable. And we could do that because we knew that's what Golden Trail would think, that's what Greg the organizer. He was as angry as we were. He's like we're. The whole point of what we're trying to do is raise the level of women's running, and this is the first experience. So if you've got an organization behind you, that is on the same page, then you're not criticizing them. You're pointing out something that they also want to change.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you're on the side of the viewer, that's the thing. If you're on the side of the viewer and the organization's on the side of the viewer, that's the thing. And they know that something isn't acceptable, even though it might be 100% their fault.

Speaker 1:

And, if anything, you're explaining to the viewer that the thing that they're annoyed about is the whole organization. You're representing, your organization saying, look, we also agree with what you're thinking right now and it keeps the view. It keeps the faith of the viewer as well, because they understand that not everything is perfect. But the fact that Corrine has basically been told she's not doing Western states and she is the voice of Western states, so many her and Dylan have done it for years. We are again. We don't know the exact behind the scenes, but I believe in the ad is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But also, she's great. And the only reason you think why would they get rid of a female commentator when actually there are far more male commentators already? She's experienced, she's great, it's got to be cause. She's outspoken. And you're like, wow, again UTMB, instead of listening, are closing the door. And the post which she, the post that she put on Instagram five days ago now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what's going to happen? What's going to happen when we sack someone who is known to be outspoken? What is going to be the side effects of that, do we think?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, You're crazy right.

Speaker 2:

You just you don't do that. You move an outspoken person, you keep them on the payroll and you slowly move them away from the thing that they're doing until they quit. That's what a bad organization does If they do it well a bad organization who handles it well. You never sack an outspoken person who is popular. That is yeah Cause then once they're on the outside and you're not paying them, you are screwed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and actually you, there probably are very good strategies for what you do. You basically sideline them or you give them an impossible role, or you listen. I mean that's one way to do it.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no. We said bad organizations, bad organizations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

This is like, yeah, we're talking PR strategies for bad organizations. If you need your bad organization and you need them, a PR strategy. So it's our latest book out, bad Boy Running to PR strategies for shit organization.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, pissing everywhere is cool, like, but the. And if you go onto Instagram and you see Corinne's post about it, so it's had 6,200 likes, which is a lot of likes, but also not just the fact that this has happened and she's said it. When you then look at who is commenting on her post, it's so much of the core of the trail running community, so much of it. You've got people like Hilary Geraldi and just skimming through, and so like Tim Tollefson, who organized Mammoth Peaks, billy Yang, katie Scheidt, who's another commentator, jason Coop from Coopcast yeah, it's crazy. And so not only is they don't, they have still haven't realized that actually what you're doing is showing to the whole community that all of the big names in the community are against you in your actions because you haven't that ultra demo's on there again just skimming through. And you know Sophie Power it's Martiska who won TDS last year, If you look through. Oh no, I like it, I like it.

Speaker 2:

What they're doing. What they're doing? What they're doing is they're saying your history and community mean nothing to us. We're Iron man, yeah, we, I am Iron man. We're Iron man. We can pick, we piss off our own community endlessly. We don't care. Yeah, the person of your community is even less important to us.

Speaker 1:

But actually so. I went for a run with Sam Sam Sheward from Ultra X at the weekend. We did nice lovely run, long run together, super fun, and I was telling him about the stuff that I've heard and the stuff I've heard that it isn't actually Iron man who are causing this problem. It's someone who is high up in the leadership of UTMB.

Speaker 2:

Oh no, that's the best thing to do. Do you do all the decisions that you wanted to do for years and you blame it on the new leadership? Yeah, and you own this.

Speaker 1:

And this is and, if you think about it, I've been interviewing the past or chatting to you the last three months. It's a lot of very senior people within the Octatrall community and my understanding of it is that actually Iron man don't have enough control over they don't really have control over decisions like this the day to day or the Gary Robbins situation. It's someone within UTMB, is my understanding, and Iron man are actually now ultra aware of not isolating your community and the power of bad PR and unfortunately they are not in a position to be able to stop the elements within UTMB from making these bad decisions. And so actually, in a weird way, iron man are the victim here, not as much as Corrine, oh, my God, what is going on here?

Speaker 2:

Iron man are never the victim. Iron man are never the victim.

Speaker 1:

But the and certainly I mean victims too strong.

Speaker 2:

but let's put this out to Iron man. I just wanna say as an organization, you're never going to be able to hold the ultra community and the trail running community in place. So if I were you, I would cut your losses. I would stick to your core brand, iron man, and I would just cut your losses and just divest yourself back to the original race directors and make sure that you just decide not to intervene in the community again, because this is gonna keep happening and it's gonna damage your brand. And do you really want to damage your brand, iron man? Do you really want to? Is it worth dying on this hill, on the UTMB hill? Is it really no?

Speaker 1:

But the interesting thing now will be what's gonna happen about this, because if you've got a cancerous element in an organization, you cut it outright, but I don't know enough about the relationships or the contracts that have been signed. I do know the individual who I've been told is probably the driving force behind these terrible decisions, is very much attached to UTMB and will be very hard to shake out without actually fundamentally changing the senior leadership of UTMB.

Speaker 2:

The best outcome is pressure from Iron man to reinstate her. So you have this rebellious person who is pushed out by this other person and then they're forced to bring them back in because of the outcry of the community. That is the best situation because that completely destroys the authority of that person within that organization. But we all.

Speaker 1:

oh, if I was the ultra, I'd now be talking to Karine about being a commentator on their races, because then you're suddenly saying, hey guys, we're not UTMB. And just looking down, looking down her post. Because of the way Instagram works, it almost filters to the top the biggest names. So first person who shows up as having commented is killing Jone. This is so sad and wrong. Second person who comes up Gary Robbins. Third person Lucy Bartholomew. Fourth person Daniela, danny Marino, like every single John Kelly. It's the whole community and it's. It's such such a a what she, what she needs to do now.

Speaker 2:

She needs she what she needs to do now. She goes okay. So thank you all for all, for your support, and you know I would expect, in solidarity, a boycott of all UTMB events going forward. Yeah. Throw, yeah, throw the cat among the pigeons there.

Speaker 1:

But that is that. That is genuinely how people feel at the moment. And even if if you, if you listened to how, if you listened to the interview after the race by Jim Wormsley after UTMB, there were elements in that of of what he was saying that was clearly, clearly not saying I'm not a fan of UTMB, I'm not a fan of this organization. And there there are. There has been taught, we've already got the trail running association, professional trail running association, and actually they are pushing into this area now where at some point they will be thinking do we actually need to take a stand? And everything's so public now. But but then I spoke to another race director who his race was like 500 people. Utmb came 3000 people the next year. So there's this disconnect between the community, the old heart, and the community and the elite and and the people buying the tickets and actually do their ticket sales in Asia. What is the connection between those individuals? Do they? Do they honestly care?

Speaker 2:

And I think that's the thing. Like, does Europe matter? That's the other thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, we've got the prestigious like races and things like that, which are nice to have in the roster. Are those? Is that the? Is that the long game Really? Yeah, probably not. It's like when, when they were talking about and you're going to wonder what the relevance is when they were talking about the super league for football, everyone was going oh, you know, you ripped the heart out of football, you know all these supporters and stuff like that, and you're like this isn't. This isn't about football in in in Europe or in England or anything like that. This is about Asia and all those markets where, when they're going to. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if you know Liverpool FC moved to bloody China at some point like a, like a franchise or something. Because that's what it's about. You've got the. You've got the, the legacy names. They're buying a legacy brand and then you're building other brands around here which are like closer to home, that you know are going to, are going to attract those as part of a UTM. But yeah, that's, that's the play, that's the long play, it's got.

Speaker 1:

And the races. The races aren't about the elite, that's ultimately, and um. Yeah, and there was another article I saw, which I can't if I put in here, where there was some one of the races UTMB races in Asia. There was no prize money, and it was a newer race and they were saying like why, why aren't our athletes allowed to have prize money? Why aren't we supporting Asian runners and therefore, um, allowing them to be more professional, to train harder, to stand more of a chance of becoming in the world elite? And so there's just so many things like that where they're just it's. Utmb is not about the elite anymore. None of the series is it's all about, because their business model is not based at all on the elite. It's all about the, the mass market tickets, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing is. It's going to be about building that up. Oh, look at this, look at us. How can UTMB again? My goodness, I love it, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Love it.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, the villain is the villain. It's the villain we've been waiting for.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And and it is. It is a watch this space to see what happens, not just in how they react to things and treat things, but will there be a change of leadership within UTMB? That, to me, is the big question now. Will I not change how it's run? No, no, no, yeah, well, do balance. I think I've. I've got to get on my work now. I've I've got a filming day with the team tomorrow. Can't wait, can't wait. Um, but do balance If there's any topics, any suggestions and, um, thank you for whoever tagged me into Kareem Malcolm's post. Um, I'll quickly check on my Instagram. That was extreme. Yeah, if you do see stories out there or things that are funny or content like that.

Speaker 2:

But if you do see anything that UTMB does wrong, we're going to be on their back all the time, whatever it is even if, even if they, even if they, even if the spelling mistake in a in a social post, no matter what it is, it's all going in the pot.

Speaker 1:

But anything you think is fun or you think is interesting or relevant. So, um, thank you, sean Dyer, for uh, for tagging me in that, um, but share it in the Facebook group or tag us on socials so we can see it. And I have invited Kareem onto the podcast I don't know if she's seen that message yet, cause we weren't friends before, but fingers crossed we can get her on at some point and just to hear about her story, her journey, cause she's she's commentated so many races, um, and and also to, to get an understanding of her where she sees, uh, improvements can be in the sport, and whether we can then link her up with the Hong Kong hundred. Come on, let's get Kareem out there to the Hong Kong hundreds or south down hundreds, now that that's part of the um that's part.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, world cultures, um so can we get her commentating these and are we going to see more of these races actually doing commentary? So, uh, yeah, anything to throw into the mix, jodie, anything extra?

Speaker 2:

No, I think if you want to, if you want to jump in Facebook group, head on over to Facebook type in bad boy running podcast. Answer three questions enjoying the conversation there. If you want that, storebadboyrunningcom.

Speaker 1:

And, uh, if the, the new merch for the running club has been sent out the first wave, so look out for that and um, yeah, I think you're going to find it super fun actually. And, um, if you, if you've, if your subscription has come through and you haven't received your merchandise in the next two, three weeks, they're message us, because it seems that a lot of members haven't actually let us know when they haven't received much for the whole year. And if that is the case, we need to get it, because there is, but there is spare merch We've overroaded so that everyone can get some of stuff goes missing. So, uh, thanks for listening guys. If there's any suggestions of guests, message me, david at badboyrunningcom or message on Instagram, and we will see you next time.

Speaker 2:

See you later. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 1:

Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. I never, ever die, come back.

Speaker 2:

Fuck you, buddy.

Podcast and 10k Race Updates
Cycling Doping Scandal
Trail Runner Safety and Crimes
Controversial Decision and Community Backlash
Issues Surrounding UTMB and Ironman